[AndreBenson]

So most of you all know that my Pajero had a bit of a water accident.

So now I need some advise as to 2 or so questions of what could have caused certain things.

We did three water crossings that day and the third one was the culprit. First of all she went in at an angle enough for her to suck water and stop the engine with a huge jerk. I tried to start her only once and if I remember correctly only two turns if that was possible. She stood there for probably about 20-30min while we did the recovery and phoned the insurance. She was recovered in reverse, what ever that's worth.

Now here is the questions.

1. My air box is muddy and the air pipe is muddy, but the air cleaner is clean. I know the water wasn't dirty and it was moving fast. and the filter was replaced max a week before the accident. There is proof of water on the pistons (burn patterns I presume).

2. They drained 4l of "clean" water from the sump, where and how can this much water enter the sump??

3. What are the chances of not having bent the con-rods??

4. Can the engine still turn with a bent con-rod??

I just want clarity on this as I spoke to the engineer that did the assessment on the engine and he can't explain these occurrences and he made me feel like I did something wrong. Which I don't appreciate. His report I presume will determine what the insurance will do next.

Some more info that might help.
The front crank seal was approaching replacement. There was a water residue at the oil filler cap and inside that cover. The vehicle stood for more than a week before they opened the engine and I have no idea if they drained the coolants before stripping the engine. The engine apparently turns manually. The seals at the oil level tube does not show wear or water residue (I was told). She did use about a pint of oil every 1500-200km, but no real visible oil leaks. It has now been almost a month since the accident.

Please gents if we can keep this clean and to the point, as it seems to be evolving into a sensitive subject.

What else could also have gone wrong or might go wrong once they have fixed it?? I would love to get my baby back, but I'm scared as hell of what awaits two or three weeks down the line.

[RoelfleRoux]

Sjoe Andre, NO, I didn't know about your misshap. I'm really sorry man.

Fast moving water may look clean, but remember the faster water moves, the more energy it has to carry material in suspension. As soon as the water slows down (in your airbox for instance), it loses that enegy and the suspended material will settle out.

Getting water (4l) into the sump sounds reasonable when considering that the crank case vent is an open circuit. So a submerged warm engine will cool of rapidly and suck lots of water. Also, I suspect that any water on top of the pistons will filter down past the rings into the sump. If submersion was deep enough, water could have flowed through the manifold, past open valves into the engine, once again to seep past the rings down to the sump. Your oil consumption does suggest rings getting towards the end of their life.

I think the unseen/ longterm concern (for me) would be possible warping of some of the hot components when the water entered the engine bay. On normal water crossings the engine bay remains dry (that is the main purpose of something like a "car bra"). As soon as the engine dies and you come to a halt, the water pushes up into the engine bay. I'm sure any decent enginering works will check for that and either replace things like manifolds or at least give them a good sceme.

I really hope your insurance comes to the party and good luck.
Roelf

[4ePajero]

First of all she went in at an angle enough for her to suck water and stop the engine with a huge jerk.

That sounds like water-lock to me.

The muddy water in the air box might merely be the water mixing with the dust in the air box.

I would insist on a new engine at best, a complete re-build at least.
A water-locked engine is damaged - period. The "strength" only determines which part breaks. Water cannot be compressed, so something had to give when it ingested water.

The water in the sump was obviously a consequence of the incident, and should not be discussed. (next thing they will tell you that they found rust in/on the engine!).
If there was water in the sump before the incident, the engine would not have got you to the crossing!

The only question (IMHO) is whether you were negligent or not.

[RoelfleRoux]

Andre,

What is the purpose of this post?

When I look at Gerhard's reply, I get the feeling that there is trouble in the air and that the engineer/insurers want to imply that the engine failed due to neglect. Is there a suggestion that the 4l of clean water in the sump had nothing to do with the submersion and subsequent engine failure? Water that finds it's way into the sump via the breather system will be clean, it would have passed through the airfilter! The mud in the airbox is a combination of the mud that was fitered from the water that passed through the aircleaner, the mud that settled from the residual water in the airbox and like Gerhard said the dust that was accumulated on the intake side of the airbox.

Surfaces that are not designed to be in contact with water will rust after one day. The hail damage I had showed rust on exposed body panels (where the paint was chipped off) the next morning.

Please keep us posted.
Roelf

[AndreBenson]

I just concerned about the experience and expertise the engineer is showing. No offence to him of course everyone has their field. The main reason for this post was the questions he was asking me that he could not explain, these are the questions I posted.

He says that the con-rods are not bent, I have difficulty understanding and believing this. Can the engine be turned by hand even with bent con-rods??

The clean air filter and clean water in the sump seems to be a big riddle to this gentleman. The clean filter I can explain, as it was replaced recently. the clean water I can explain for myself as the water needs to go through the filter. I would personally have been more worried if the water in the sump was dirty!!

Now I am in no way mechanically oriented, i push buttons on a key board and move a pen around. but even I can get my mind around where and how things happened.

The mud in the air system and box I can explain, we've been driving in sand, mud gravel roads, etc etc. the previously filter was replaced because I saw a considerable drop in my fuel consumption and performance. Mitsu opened the box and replaced the filter, lo and behold, everything back to normal.

I don't want to jump the gun with the insurance, I'm just trying to find answers to questions that I have no experience in .

[4ePajero]

Can the engine be turned by hand even with bent con-rods??

Yes, possibly (depending on other damage). That does not say that the engine is OK, though!

Bent conrods are only one of many possible failures due to water-lock.
Others include

• broken pistons
• broken gudgeon pins
• broken big ends
• failed bearings
• cracked heads
• cracked valves
• broken/stripped belts/chains
• etc etc

Water-lock can (and often is) fatal.

[RoelfleRoux]

I agree that water-lock is almost always fatal. Like Gerhards said earlier, the water can't compress.

We did however come across a Nissan Patrol (2.8 straight 6) on an occasion in Botswana that was standing due to water lock. The one guy in our group is more mechanical minded than many of myself put together. He took out the plugs and soaked up as much water as possible and dried everything he could find and got the car going again. One has to assume that there are various degrees of flooding of a motor.

Andre,
How hard were you pushing the engine at the time?

Gerhard,
If the engine was at idle revs and because it is linked to the drive train via a torque converter, am I correct to assume that as soon as the engine died there was no force to do more damage? Is it thus possible that the conrods could have escaped damage?

[4ePajero]

Gerhard,
If the engine was at idle revs and because it is linked to the drive train via a torque converter, am I correct to assume that as soon as the engine died there was no force to do more damage? Is it thus possible that the conrods could have escaped damage?

Fortunately many engines die due to it sucking in only a bit of water, which makes combustion impossible.
In that case, damage can be minimal (as per the Nissan example).

Per definition, water lock is when the engine ingests (only) water in stead of air, and the combustion chamber is filled with only water. In that case, the results are usually fatal.

I suppose that an engine can stop due to water lock and not get damaged, but it will be a rare occasion.

[AndreBenson]

A rare occasion it seems then

I'm not sure what or how they tested anything, but the insurance will fix it as they believe that nothing was bent.
They came to this conclusion because the air intake box and pipes are dirty but the air filter is clean. Thus according to the engineer that had a look at the engine says that the 4l of water did not come through the air box/engine/pistons and it had to have come from somewhere else.

I'm meeting with them on monday to find out what else they need from me.

New question, why would the engine then die in the water???

[4ePajero]

New question, why would the engine then die in the water???

Electronics shorted out?
Make sure they check out the electrics and electronics as well.
All the body fluids need to be flushed and replaced as well:

• transmission
• transfer case
• diffs
• brake fluid