Page 1 of 2

Advice wanted on purchase of Gen 3 SWB

Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 10:11 am
by maccarron
Im in the market for a Gen 3 SWB DiD and I believe there are earlier and later models in this series with the diff lock and the traction control. The question is which is better and what would be the pro's and con's either way.

Also where I can I get some detail on what all the different sub-models (Ie GLS etc) come with and how they differ in the Gen 3 range.

I am very familiar with both Series and Defender Landys and their diff-lock systems. From what Im gathering the Landys differ quite a bit from the limited slip diffs of the Paj, arguably giving a safer ride esp at speed on gravel roads?

Re: Advice wanted on purchase of Gen 3 SWB

Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 5:56 pm
by Gerrit Loubser
Hi maccaron and welome.

Which is better between a rear diff lock and traction control is a raging debate with more questions than answers, which might indicate that they offer similar off-highway abilities over all, with each having their fortes and their issues.

The following summary is my opinion (for the Gen 3) and might be of some help:

Rear Diff Lock

Advantages
- Because it is a simple mechanical lock between the lefthand and righthand rear sideshafts, it is possible for the torque split to vary seamlessly and instantaneously between the two rear wheels, depending on the grip underfoot. This means that it works equally well when slowly crawling over boulders and when storming a huge dune.
- All power dissipated by the rear axle is used to propel the vehicle
- It is under control of the driver to a great extent

Disadvantages
- As the name implies, the rear diff lock only acts on the rear wheels. It is quite easy to find yourself in a situation (e.g. climbing an undulating, steep, loose surfaced hill) where you are immobilized with one front wheel lifted and spinning, the other front wheel stationary and the two rears spinning despite having good grip, without being able to generate enough tractive effort to climb the grade. Being able to lock the front diff would make all the difference.
- Some understeer is induced when the rear diff is locked (not a lot, though).


Electronic Traction Control

Advantages
- The system acts on all four wheels and can assist in preventing spin-out on any of them.
- The system is part of a setup that also includes vehicle stability control (VSC), which helps to keep the vehicle under control at high speeds by selectively applying the individual wheel brakes and reducing engine power based on inputs received from the throttle position sensor, the steering angle sensor and an accelerometer.
- Minimal interference with vehicle steering

Disadvantages
- Electronic traction control is a reactive system that has a response time (i.e. there is a lag in its operation). This might be enough to bog you down in a situation where a little momentum is required and things happen a little faster.
- The system is under full electronic control, with very little input required (or indeed possible) from the driver
- If the VSC system is not disabled, the vehicle can bog down very easily in loose sand, due to the systems overenthusiastic use of the wheel brakes and power reduction to kurb what it perceives to be alarming spinning and sliding, but which is normal in sand driving.
- If the VSC system is not disabled, it is possible to bog down when trying to pull rapidly onto a tar road from a dirt side road as the system cuts power to prevent spinning and leaves the vehicle in the lurch in the path of oncoming traffic.
- The VSC system automatically turns itself back on whenever the vehicle ignition is turned off and on again or when the speed exeeds 80km/h (I think). This can catch one out.
- The system depends upon the ABS braking system. The hydraulic brake booster can only cope with so much continuous use and it will eventually (after 10 to 15 minutes of continuous use) shut itself down to prevent overheating. It announces that this is imminent via a loud buzzer. When this happens, you are left with no traction aids and open diffs until things have cooled down.
- Accelerated brake wear
- A small wiring fault or ABS sensor fault could lead to the system shutting itself down and then you are back to open diffs...
- Nominally 50% of the power dissipated by each axle will be in the form of heat generated by the brakes whenever the traction control is operating


Some general musings:

A rear diff lock will have the upper hand in the following type of scenarios where vehicle speed is relatively high:
- Thick sand
- Thick mud
- Steep undulating climbs

Traction control will have the upper hand in the following type of scenario:
- Slow crawling over very uneven terrain.


All the Gen 3 SWBs officially imported via Mitsubishi Motors SA (or the few that were brought in by SAMCOR) are of GLS spec. Up to somewhere during 2003 they all came with the rear diff lock. Any 3.5 SWB will have a rear diff lock. When the 3.8 V6 was launched somewhere in 2003, the diff lock was dropped and electronic traction control (and VSC) was introduced (and side airbags).

In terms of use at speed on gravel roads I think you are correct in saying that the Paj's Super Select system is more sophisticated than the Landy'a full time 4x4 system with lockable open center diff. The Paj has a viscous limited slip diff in the center that prevents spin-out (front to rear), but does not generate wind-up. Pajero Gen 3s with the rear diff lock actually have a lockable Torsen limited slip diff in the rear, so even when it is unlocked, it prevents complete rear axle spin-out as long as both rear wheels have some grip.

Oh and Dave, real men don't use traction control. Always keep it real ;) :D :mrgreen:

Re: Advice wanted on purchase of Gen 3 SWB

Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 3:48 pm
by nojlib
Hi

I have read a bunch of posts, but most posts are too general or specific with exceptions listed that I don't understand.
I hope I am not hi-jacking this post;

I have a 2006 Gen 3 SWB Paj. no mods.

Can you guys plz explain the most probable diff setup that it would have?

Center?
Rear?

Re: Advice wanted on purchase of Gen 3 SWB

Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:06 pm
by 4ePikanini
it will have

2h - rear wheel drive
4h - all wheel drive
4hlc - 4x4 with center diff locked
4llc - same as 4hlc but low range

You will have traction control and no rear diff lock.

Re: Advice wanted on purchase of Gen 3 SWB

Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:27 pm
by GertM
Gerrit Loubser wrote: The Paj has a viscous limited slip diff in the center that prevents spin-out (front to rear), but does not generate wind-up. Pajero Gen 3s with the rear diff lock actually have a lockable Torsen limited slip diff in the rear, so even when it is unlocked, it prevents complete rear axle spin-out as long as both rear wheels have some grip.
Gerrit

But the centre diff is lockable, isn't it? Therefore it will generate wind-up on tar, not?

I did not know that the rear diff with diff lock was a limited slip diff.

But, I bow to your superior knowledge, sir..... :)

Re: Advice wanted on purchase of Gen 3 SWB

Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 6:02 pm
by Gerrit Loubser
GJM wrote:Gerrit

But the centre diff is lockable, isn't it? Therefore it will generate wind-up on tar, not?
Hi Gert.

Yes it will generate wind-up on high grip surfaces when cornering, but only when locked. The 4H mode is available for use on any surface, including high grip ones. In this mode the center diff is unlocked, but it is still a viscous limited slip diff. 4HLc and 4LLc should not be used on high grip surfaces, due to the fact that these modes lock the center diff.

Re: Advice wanted on purchase of Gen 3 SWB

Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 6:32 pm
by RoelfleRoux
GJM,

I'm just a little concerned that there could be a small miss communication here:
You have the 2002 Pajero, so it should have the rear diff lock. During 2003 the rear diff lock was replaced (so no more diff lock) by electronic traction control on all GLS Pajeros. The GLX LWB retained the rear diff lock and did not get traction control.

All Pajeros will have a centre diff that is either completely disengaged (2H - rear wheel drive), or engaged but open (4H - this is what the Landy and Toyota SUVs refer to as "permanent four wheel drive") or locked (4H - this is the 4x4 setup found on any good, old fashioned 4x4 bakkie).

AND YES, if you lock ANY diff, wind-up will occur on good grip surfaces.

When you read the brochures on the net, the Pajero is referred to as a permanent four wheel drive, with a rear wheel drive option to save fuel.

Enjoy your Pajero,
Roelf

Re: Advice wanted on purchase of Gen 3 SWB

Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 8:41 am
by GertM
Thanks, Gerrit and Roelf. I understand and know how these things work and I was merely commenting on the statements made.
There is still one thing I am at a loss with and that is that Gerrit said that the rear diff on my car "actually have a lockable Torsen limited slip diff in the rear, so even when it is unlocked, it prevents complete rear axle spin-out as long as both rear wheels have some grip".
I would like to know if that is in fact a lsd that is lockable.

Re: Advice wanted on purchase of Gen 3 SWB

Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 9:28 am
by 4ePikanini
GJM wrote:Thanks, Gerrit and Roelf. I understand and know how these things work and I was merely commenting on the statements made.
There is still one thing I am at a loss with and that is that Gerrit said that the rear diff on my car "actually have a lockable Torsen limited slip diff in the rear, so even when it is unlocked, it prevents complete rear axle spin-out as long as both rear wheels have some grip".
I would like to know if that is in fact a lsd that is lockable.
Yes, the first Gen3's had Torsen LSD's with a lockable rear diff. The facelift (round fog lights in front bumper) got traction control but I'm unsure if they kept the LSD's.

Re: Advice wanted on purchase of Gen 3 SWB

Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 11:53 am
by Gerrit Loubser
4ePikanini wrote:Yes, the first Gen3's had Torsen LSD's with a lockable rear diff. The facelift (round fog lights in front bumper) got traction control but I'm unsure if they kept the LSD's.
Gen 3s with traction control lost the Torsen and got a normal open rear diff (I think they call this PCO: Product Cost Optimization) :mrgreen: .

The early Aussie spec Gen 3s (before the advent of traction control) had another interesting diff as standard in the rear: a so called hybrid Torsen. This is a Torsen limited slip diff with a viscous coupler added across the side shafts. This means that the Torsen can still function with one wheel on the rear lifted (due to the viscous keeping load on the diff).

The Torsen has a very high torque bias ratio (i.e. it makes it possible to transmit a much greater amount of torque via the one side shaft than the other), which means that it can be much more effective than a friction type LSD, but only if both wheels on the axle have some grip. With one wheel in the air, the Torsen works like an open diff. Now in the hybrid Torsen, the viscous coupling always ensures that the sides haft going to the lifted wheel presents some resistance to motion so that a multiple of this amount of resisting torque can be transmitted via the wheel that is on the ground. The Pajero's hybrid Torsen apparently works amazingly well as an automatic, all mechanical traction control device, but was never offered on local spec Gen 3s.