[4ePikanini]

I have been following the latest 2SO debate on 4x4com forum and there is the same argument going on as with all the previous ones with no foregone conclusion besides heresay and word of mouth from "experts".

Anyway, I typed a lengthy reply for that 2SO issue (I also get pulled in...I'm still learning restraint ) but that's not why I started this thread so I deleted it and got back to dirty diesel.

Is our fuel dirty in RSA?

That depends on what you refer to?

Do you refer to the sulphur content or contaminants? Most people think that 500ppm is dirtier than 50ppm which is completely false. The number simply refers to the amount of sulphur content in the diesel.(ppm = parts per million)

So, in my opinion dirty diesel is the presence of anything other than diesel, ie. water, parrafin, grit etc.

So why do fuel manufacturers go lower and lower with the parts per million stuff?

- sulphur is a poisonous gas so they reduce it for emissions and eco reasons
- sulphur contaminates the engine oil making it acidic, hence the short oil change intervals in the past and modern european diesels having up to 20'000km intervals.
- sulphur isn't great for modern day DPF systems in diesels.

Trouble is that the process to remove sulphur also removes the inherent lubricity of diesel (NB: sulphur does NOT provide lubricity) so they have to add additives to counter this - some believe that not enough lubricity is gained and so the 2SO issue comes up again.

I have posted recently that it has been proven that 2SO adds lubricity. - https://www.pajeroclub.co.za/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2940

It is also a fact that it burns away carbon deposits.

Most report longer burn off intervals with DPF's when they use 2SO and I can personally testify that 2SO does not block CATs on diesels...

.... but there I go again. Let's get back to dirty diesel.

My conclussion : Our dirty diesel is from sub standard (compared to european) transport, transfer and storage methods allowing contaminants.

Hence, should you

- shorten the oil change intervals
- use a UDF to catch the smallest grit
- use a proper diesel filter and check/drain for water
- (forgive me) add 2SO to aid lubricity and reduce carbon build up

theoretically you should be able to run any modern day engine on 5000ppm (yes, that's 3 zeros).

So, what do you guys think or is my mind losing it as bad as the Aussies is losing the cricket?

[4ePajero]

The sulphur content (ppm) is a chemical fact, and the different sulphur contents will have different chemical results.
Sulphur content won't have a influence on your injectors.
It will have an influence on your service intervals, emissions, CATs and DPFs.

Dirty diesel is, as Marius said, a physical thing and will effect diesel (or petrol) with any chemical make-up.

The adding of 2SO to diesel has (in my opinion) nothing to do with lubricity (the lubricating of parts it comes into contact with).
The main (only?) advantage is that diesel (or petrol) with ±1:200 2SO burns clean with very little carbon residue, and will in fact remove built-up carbon residue in the combustion chamber and the outlet tract (the time it takes will depend on how bad the build up is).

PS re the thread on 4x4community:
There are photographs posted of inlet manifolds which are carboned up to near blocked.
The perception is then created that 2SO will solve this.
Highly unlikely!
Inlet manifolds on diesel engines convey only three things:

• clean air
• burned exhaust gasses (from the EGR)
• oily air from the crank case (from the PCV)

The last one is the main culprit when it comes to 'gunk" build up in the inlet tract. Adding 2SO to the diesel will have no effect on this source of build up.
If one assumes that the engine is in good nick, the exhaust gasses will contain very little un-burned diesel/2S oil. The 2SO in the fuel therefore never reaches the inlet manifold or ports, and can therefore have very little if any influence in cleaning the inlet tract!
The cure for those build ups is to remove 'other' gasses from entering the inlet tract (exhaust gasses & crank case ventilated gasses), but that is another subject.

[bold4E]

I would like to know if there is anybody on this forum that can show me the test results by a reliable third party (eg. the CSIR) that tested the diesel in our country to show that our diesel is dirtier than those used in outher countries.

I do not believe that the oil companies will always do the best for the end user but it is hard for me to believe that one of the oil companies will not make use of 2SO and have a advantage above the other companies if it was such an easy solution to better the lubricating properties of diesel. There may be other "bad" things caused by adding 2SO to the diesel on a permanent basis that we does not know of.

Waldo Fourie

[4ePajero]

This looks like the 4E clan discussion forum!

.... if it was such an easy solution to better the lubricating properties of diesel. There may be other "bad" things caused by adding 2SO to the diesel on a permanent basis that we does not know of.

As I said, increased lubricity is the least of my motivations for using it.

Adding 2SO to the diesel vs PCV:
If you have a problem using 2SO in your diesel, you should have a much larger problem with the PCV (Positive Crankcase Ventilation) system, which feeds 'old' engine oil into the combustion chamber!

• Depending on the condition of the engine, this could be more oil than what the 2SO dosing is
• it feeds the wrong type of oil into the combustion chamber - oil that burns with residues left behind!

Adding 2SO to the diesel will counter the build up of residue due to the PCV.

The burning properties of 2SO:
2SO is a low ash oil, which has very specific combustion benefits.
It burns without leaving a residue. That's why it is used as lubricant in 2-stroke engines (at much higher concentrations than what we are suggesting here).
A well-kept 2-stroke engine has NO residues in it's combustion chamber!
The latest diesel oils are categorized as "low ash", specifically to reduce residue build up in combustion chambers.

2SO and diesel are both oils!
Although they have different applications and specifications, they are both distilled from the same base oils.

Google "low ash oil" and educate yourself about it's benefits

[4ePajero]

From the "Ask Mobil" website:

Question:
What Are the Benefits of Low Ash Oil?
What are the benefits of using "low ash" oil? I have some Mobil 1 low ash for my Mercedes diesel. Can it be used elsewhere?
-- Lawrence Yont, State College, PA

Answer:
Low ash oils typically are used for diesel vehicles that have a DPF (Diesel Particulate Filter) so the carryover oil that makes it into the exhaust system does not foul the particulate filter. We recommend you use the low ash oils for these applications. In the future, low ash oils will probably become more of a standard and will be acceptable for use in other applications as well.

[4ePikanini]

the topic at hand though.....

what is dirty diesel?

Can modern day (european) diesel engines run on 500ppm provided contaminants are taken care of via watertrap, shortened oil change intervals, DPF deletion and UDF? My guess is, yes!

[4ePajero]

Agreed, just add "appropriate filters".

[4ePikanini]

Right, so why don't we get the latest diesel engines then? (albeit with revised exhaust equipment, and revised service intervals)

Is our fuel then contaminated - which goes against statements made elsewhere that our fuel is clean?

If it is contaminated, then it would explain the increasing failures in tight tolerance diesel engine's ancillaries and more the reason to revise filters and add some ...

Off Topic

2SO

[RedCat]

Hiya,

Anyone read the clinic section in this months SA4x4? Apart from my letter being published as the winning letter , there is also one about Pajeros and fuels. The response from Mitsubishi SA indicates that our Pajeros don't have DPFs and 500ppm is fine, even for my Gen4 by the sounds of things.

[bold4E]

Before I rebuilt my 3.2 DID engine I was in contact with Chevron about lubricants for the engine, transmission and differentials. They are the manufacturerers of our famous Delo 400 oils. They gave me very good advice and yesterday I sent them the e-mail below (marked in red)

-----Original Message-----
From: Waldo Fourie [mailto:waldo@wispeco.co.za]
Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2011 9:46 AM
To: Lube Tek Call Center
Subject: Lubricants – Technical Questions

I've got a few questions to ask:

1. Is Delo 400 a low ash oils as needed buy the latest developed diesel enjins with all the latest immision control valves and filters ?

2. Is there any benefit in adding two stroke oil to the diesel of my vehicle ? a. Will it help prevent carbon build-up on the pistons ? b. Will it better the lubrication on the diesel pump ? c. Will it counter the build up of residue due to the PCV ? d. Is all two stroke oils low ash oils ?

Regards,

Waldo Fourie

They were quick with their response and this is what their response to my e-mail looked like (again maked in red).

Dear Waldo Fourie,

Low ash oils are necessary for the latest vehicles fitted with Diesel Particulate Filters (or 'DPF').
You will also see the term 'Low SAPS' oil and this refers to the Sulphated Ash, Phosphorus and Sulphur, which the latest oils contain less of to enable the use of the DPF as a way to reduce emissions.
In Europe we have Delo 400 LE Synthetic 5W-40 (as well as some low SAPS Ursa grades) and in the USA there is Delo 400 LE 15W-40 and 10W-30, as well as the LE Synthetic 5W-40 grade.


There would be no benefit in adding two-stroke oil to diesel and we would strongly advise against this as it may impair the running of the vehicle.
It would be better to use a diesel system treatment, which would prevent the build up of deposits on the injectors and keeps the fuel system in good operating condition.

Two-stroke oils should always be low-ash as they are 'total loss' lubricants, which are burned with the fuel in the two-cycle stage of the engine and it is important that they do not leave any deposits during the combustion phase.

Hope this information helps.


Best regards
Andrew Moseley.


Andrew Moseley
Technical Support Specialist

Chevron Lubricants
Chevron Products UK Limited



Chevron Products UK Limited. Registered in England and Wales (03600726). Registered office 1 Westferry Circus, Canary Wharf, London, England, E14 4HA

My next question to them will be: to explain the difference between the Delo we buy in RSA and the Delo mentioned in their answer in their e-mail. I will also asked them if we need the other speck oil or ain't it necesary duo to legislation in ou country.

I will post what ever I hear from them on this forum.


Regards,


Waldo Fourie